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chibikaie ([info]chibikaie) wrote,
@ 2007-11-10 03:34:00

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Entry tags:disgaea

Ninjas completely kick butt. I thought I was going to have an awful time leveling him up (it takes forever and a day to level the horde of mages) but he hardly ever gets hit, plus he counters up to three times (this helps make up for the fact that I haven't buffed him to the point where he inflicts one-hit kills). He may not have a ranged attack, but he has a good natural movement range, and the high evasion rate means it's safe to send him out there. I can even let him get surrounded as long as the enemies aren't too tough - he'll counterattack an escape route.

Now I'm working on getting a samurai, a female healer, a star mage, and then hopefully a rune knight. I don't really know what I'm doing with a party this large, but I want one of each class eventually.

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[info]zoifox
2007-11-12 11:21 pm UTC (link)
Ooh, ninjas. I haven't really used them in Disgaea 2 - evidently they got nerfed rather hard after the first game - but now I have something to look forward to when I finally DO play the first game!

What do you have him using for weaponry?

Rune Knights are supposed to be one of the best classes in the game, aren't they? I know their Disgaea 2 equivalents are right up there.

Do you get anything for unlocking all the classes? I know Disgaea 2 gives you a nice set of felonies for that...

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[info]chibikaie
2007-11-13 02:33 am UTC (link)
I can totally see why they'd get nerfed. He's almost as invincible as Laharl. I have him using an axe - not the greatest weapon, but I didn't have an axe unit when I made him, and I haven't felt the need to change. In fact, he's been such a cool unit, I haven't gotten much closer to getting a rune knight.

There are no felonies in Disgaea 1, so I don't think I get anything other than the satisfaction of doing it. Of course, I JUST discovered that I racked up an ally kill (HOW?! I never ever attack my own characters! then again there was one time when I was falling asleep and I'm not sure exactly WHAT happened but, but I thought I reloaded), so I might be restarting again. I just really, really, REALLY want to get the good ending.

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[info]zoifox
2007-11-13 11:15 pm UTC (link)
=)

I don't have any axe users in my party. I don't particularly like axes; they bring down a unit's HIT stat too much.

(Also, there's one axe skill that gives me a blinding headache whenever an enemy unit uses it. So I'm biased.)

I have various units I'm hoping to turn into Rune Knights/Magic Knights eventually, but I keep getting sidetracked.

Majin apparently also got nerfed in Disgaea 2. But you don't get them until your second playthrough, anyway.

And I think I may have locked myself out of Disgaea 2's good ending a while back. I may go for one of the nonstandard endings (just so long as I don't get Bad Ending #2, because EW), and then restart. I think I get to keep the units I have...

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[info]chibikaie
2007-11-14 05:02 am UTC (link)
I, ah, close my eyes when the axe skills trigger. I like them because they're single-square and therefore don't require me to move stuff out of the way to use them, but you're right about the Hit stat. It may have something to do with his relatively low damage output (heck, Laharl was doing better and he uses a STAFF), so my next ninja is going to be a sword-user for comparison.

I could still get the Normal Ending, but I just have weird ideas about how I should play games. I want to get the Good Ending first, and then go back and deliberately get other endings. It'd be awesome if I got to keep the units - but wait - would they still be pupils of the same units who originally created them? Because I will go completely ballistic if I have to teach Laharl every single spell a second time.

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[info]zoifox
2007-11-17 12:23 am UTC (link)
I was going to suggest it might be a weapons affinity problem, but according to the Disgaea Strategy Guide Tables from Hell, the ninja's Axe affinity is actually pretty good. So I don't know.

There's also a fist skill that has that blinding strobe effect; I can't remember off-hand which one it is, though.

Going by the Tables from Hell (which, while appropriate for the game in the From Hell sense, are murder on the eyes - seriously, what were they THINKING when they picked that layout??), a ninja's sword affinity is actually weaker than their axe affinity. Their best weapons are fists.

Speaking of the Tables from Hell, I've got a couple of links for you:

1. DoubleJump's Afternoon of Darkness Errata Forum

2. The corrected EDF Soldier table

I prefer getting the Good Ending first too, actually, and will get really, REALLY annoyed at myself if I manage to screw it up. I also tend to obsess over the bestiaries, which tends to increase my game time (sometimes by a huge amount) because I need to fill the bestiary my first time out. I had to force myself not to restart Shadow Hearts because I missed a monster in a dungeon I can no longer access.

I haven't yet been able to find out whether the master-pupil relationship carries across both games. You DO retain character levels, although you'll only have access to the storyline characters once you get to the point at which you recruit them (once you get them back, they'll be at their previous [last game] level - I'm not sure if they'll be at that level if you have to fight them, but they will be when you get them back). But otherwise, yeah, you get to keep your characters and their levels.

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[info]chibikaie
2007-11-17 01:28 am UTC (link)
*cough* Well, Laharl by comparison was higher level, with whatever bonuses he got from his pupil(s). Plus, it's scary how fast he gains weapon levels merely from counterattacking. I have half a mind to go increase the counterattacks on all my spellcasters so they'll stop being quite so lame. Given that I keep forgetting to get them out of attack range grumble mumble grumble it might just help keep them alive.

I have yet to figure out the exact master-pupil relationship on multiple pupils and strings of pupils - I read something confusing about only getting stat bonuses when the new pupil surpasses the old one in level. Don't know how that works, and am not entirely certain how it would work with even one pupil alone - when is the bonus obtained? when the pupil levels or when the master levels? is it only the highest level pupil when the master gains a level? or every time the highest level pupil gains a level? In other words, is it better to have a chain of pupils, spending obscene amounts of time leveling up the lowest-rank ones and hoping that the high stats will trickle up, or is it better to have several different pupils directly under the same master, booting each pupil up a level in turn to maximize bonuses?

Although I must admit that the only thing that I'm honestly worried about is losing magic skills learned through Extra Gain. It is an absolute pain in the neck to chain Star up through my healer, red skull, green skull, blue skull, then Laharl, then level up the star skull to get Mega Star and then repeat the entire process start to finish. And then Flonne has her own team of mages! What was I thinking??? .... oh yeah, that Laharl totally kicks three kinds of ass when I do this. Still, once I manage to do it, I really don't think I want to do it again.

I have ignored the strategy guide tables entirely in favor of using the World of Disgaea ones ... the specifics in the guide aren't worth the eyestrain. Besides which I don't think I'm quite at that point of obsession yet.

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[info]zoifox
2007-11-18 04:37 am UTC (link)
Yay for counterattacking! Especially when it boosts weapons mastery.

From what I can tell, the master gets stat bonuses when the pupil levels up. If a master takes on a new pupil, s/he won't start gaining bonuses from the new pupil until the new pupil's level exceeds that of the old level.

Also, if you've got a chain of master -> pupil a -> pupil b, where a is b's master, a's master isn't going to benefit from b's level ups, at least not directly.

I really haven't tried chaining pupils; I usually go the "master with multiple pupils" route. Granted, Lexi, who is Adell's pupil, has a number of her own pupils, but that's because she has a truly obscene amount of Mana and can afford to create Genius units.

Going by the guide, and if Disgaea 2 is any indication, some maps will become excellent levelling maps once you clear them. That'll make levelling units a little easier, although levelling skills is still a pain. If the guide is accurate, they don't have specialists that boost skill mastery (Disgaea 2 has Mentors), which sucks. There are specialists that boost experience gains and weapon skill mastery, at least.

(Incidentally, there is apparently a glitch with the Foresight glasses, which when you buy them tend to have subdued Armsmasters at a level waaaaaay above the normal limit for Armsmasters.)

I have not been able to find anything whatsoever about retaining skills learned from pupils after starting a New Game+ cycle. And I've looked! Very frustrating.

Those tables really are atrociously designed, aren't they? The tables in the Disgaea 2 guide are generally clearer, and not printed in eyestrain-inducing colors. The Disgaea 1 guide is a large step down.

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]chibikaie
2007-11-18 06:47 am UTC (link)
Chaining pupils is really only good for teaching one unit a bunch of different spells when you haven't unlocked the higher level mage classes.

Hm, so then do you continue to gain stat bonuses from both pupils, as long as pupil 2 has exceeded pupil 1's level once? That's definitely an argument for having multiple pupils. So far, I've only ever racked up enough Mana on one unit to create an Average character - no Geniuses for me, yet. I have too many units (see obscenely long pupil chain) and seem to not spend nearly enough time leveling any of them.

I did find a neat trick for levelling skills: standing on an Attack +1 panel will cause my spells to fire twice - including things like Magic Boost, Shield, and Heal. And unlike skills that do damage, these can be repeatedly cast on ally units - I won't run out of targets! (It's very frustrating to nuke the last enemy on the field when you're two castings away from learning a new spell permanently.)

(Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)


[info]zoifox
2007-11-21 12:33 am UTC (link)
I thought the higher level mage classes only learned offensive magic up to Omega, except for Star magic, for which they learn Tera. Not true?

(Also, chaining also seems to be good if you're interested in building specific stats for a master, e.g. ATK or HIT.)

One of the FAQS on GameFaqs implies that a master gets stat bonuses based on the stat level of the pupil with the highest number of points for that stat, e.g. if Pupil A has a HIT stat of 500 and Pupil B a HIT of 2000, the master's HIT bonus will be based off Pupil B's HIT stat. On the other hand, if Pupil A has the higher INT stat, the master's INT bonus will be based off of Pupil A. I'm not sure if I'm reading that right, though.

Oh, yeah, Attack + 1 is great for skill and/or weapon levelling. Invincibility panels are also good; you can stand a unit on an Invincibility panel and just whale away on them to your heart's content. (Attack + 1 AND Invincibility is, of course, a GREAT combination for levelling units.)

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[info]chibikaie
2007-11-28 04:47 am UTC (link)
Hmm, I hadn't paid attention to that, but you're right - Tera spells are restricted to skulls/mages of the respective element (including Star). Then I guess chaining is the only way to teach them all to a single unit (well, unless you're able to reincarnate as different classes and are very, very patient - also I'm not sure I understand how a unit's learned spells carry over during transmigration or whatever it's called). I was more referring to the fact that the Galaxy variety gets access to all three elements, plus Star. If you weren't interested in Tera spells, then, it would be vastly simpler to use a single Galaxy Skull or Mage. Chaining means ... four units that you need to level up (to level 100 or 120!), five if you include a Cleric (although you only need to hit level 50 to get the best healing spell). And I'm insane and want one chain of each gender, all with a staff skill of at least 34.

I think I just talked myself into going back to FFT for a while. Yikes. Fighters are so much less complicated to build up.

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[info]zoifox
2007-11-28 05:23 pm UTC (link)
You could also go the multiple pupils per master route to teach spells that way, but you're still having to level up those four or five units.

I'm not sure if it's the same in Disgaea 1, but in 2, Skulls and Mages have different debuffing skills, so there's that to take into account as well.

^^;;;

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[info]chibikaie
2007-11-29 02:44 am UTC (link)
True, but then you're stuck with each pupil only knowing one type of magic, which I find vastly annoying. At least with the chain, every single one knows Star, therefore only being at a disadvantage if the enemy has an abnormally high RES stat (which I'm beginning to discover is a frequent occurrence - WTH?).

I did finally notice that it's easier for females to learn new spells. They only have to rack up 50 skill points, rather than 100. That means it's easier to teach my ARCHER a spell than it is to teach Laharl. Oh, well. I wanted a full set of units anyway. Unfortunately, it seems that neither Skulls nor Mages have any debuffing skills in Disgaea 1 - just buffing.

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[info]zoifox
2007-11-29 11:41 pm UTC (link)
Point taken. Versatility is good. (Although I think some people wind up reincarnating a Skull/Mage into another class when a new one opens up, thereby taking one character all the way up the chain. This sounds really annoying and time-consuming, although given what I've been doing with my units I'm probably not one to talk.)

If I remember correctly, the difference between Mages and Skulls in Disgaea 2 (besides the obvious) is that one learns spells faster while the other doesn't use as much SP per spell, although I'm blanking on which is which at the moment. Have you noticed anything like that?

And it looks like all the debuffing skills in Disgaea 1 are enemy-only. That's a bit unfair, isn't it? (Then again, I never use debuffers in Disgaea 2, so again, I'm not one to talk.)

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[info]chibikaie
2007-12-01 03:22 am UTC (link)
Well, I can see where debuffing would be great for levelling up weaker characters (who otherwise might not be able to cause even 1 point of damage). At the moment, I use mid-range characters to lower HP and then bring in some really low level characters to finish them off, but this frequently backfires whenever counterattacks come into play. I actually end up favoring those of my units who don't counter.

I evaluated SP cost among my various units - it looks like SP cost varies with spell skill level? WTF? I officially give up because I generally have enough SP - and when I don't, I've still got six other units with the same or similar spells. So I don't care. Really. Even if that question is going to nag me to death tonight. (Dammit.)

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[info]zoifox
2007-12-01 03:49 am UTC (link)
Yeah, countering is useful in a lot of respects, but not when you're trying to level up weaker characters.

SP cost does go up with skill level. I guess the idea is that the more powerful a skill is, the more energy it requires, and thus the more SP it should use?

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[info]chibikaie
2007-12-01 04:08 am UTC (link)
Huh. Well, at least I wasn't going crazy, but then I guess the idea was that males should not learn spells? That's pretty warped. You don't get any classes unlocked by leveling up any male spell casters, and no advantages.

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[info]zoifox
2007-12-01 05:30 am UTC (link)
They did differentiate them a bit more in Disgaea 2, but in Disgaea 1, it looks like the only differences between mages and skulls are that mages have better SPD and skulls have better HIT. Since neither of those stats are particularly important for either class, it's kind of a wash.

I'm not getting why the female characters would be better at learning spells than the males. There doesn't seem to be any logical reason for setting the classes up that way! Very strange gameplay element. I'd think you'd want every class to have at least one compelling reason to use it, especially a class with a female counterpart. (Then again, Disgaea 2's Aqua Demons pretty much suck across the board...)

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[info]chibikaie
2007-12-03 08:04 am UTC (link)
I'm going to assume that the compelling reason to have male characters is to get a Majin - which is a fighting-only class. In other words, I'm assuming that they're going with the stereotypical male/female split in RPGs, and that they have the male casters available but don't expect anyone to bemoan the fact that they're not as good as the female casters. (I'd like to think that they weren't so dumb as to think we wouldn't notice.)

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[info]zoifox
2007-12-03 04:52 pm UTC (link)
That male/female split is probably why I spend so much of my RPG-playing time turning my female characters into physical powerhouses. Not that I don't appreciate the female mages (unless they keep dying on me/getting taken hostage/whatnot) for their magic talent, but it gets old when that's all that's available. Heck, when I was playing Digital Devil Saga, I deliberately had Serph (male) concentrating on the magic Mantras, while Sera (female) took on the physical Mantras. (And then they went and combined into one being, but still.) It helps that Serph's stat growth is under the player's direct control; you get a set number of points per level for him (and Seraph), and can place them in whichever stat you want.

Conversely, in FFVI, I turned Gau into a magical powerhouse. Okay, that probably made him redundant in comparison to Celes and Terra (and Mog, although I think I turned him into an all-around powerhouse rather than a specialist), but hey, I liked him, and there were times when I preferred to have him under complete control in battles. Plus, he was fast.

Skulls seem to exist mainly to be transmigrated into other classes. Disgaea 2 does differentiate them from the female Mages a bit more that Disgaea 1 does, but they still come off as redundant even in 2, which is a shame. I don't even use my Skulls anymore; I'll probably wind up transmigrating them into Magic Knights or something.

While we're on the subject of Disgaea 2, have you seen this?

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[info]chibikaie
2007-12-05 05:26 am UTC (link)
Heh, I spend all my time building the guys into uber-mages. I turned Squall into a support mage, after all.

You probably don't want to know what I did with my FF6 party. I was basically incompetent with all of the unique character skills, so I never really used any of them except Tool, Dance, and Lore. I also spent a lot of time playing just to watch Mog walk around the screen, so I levelled everyone up a great deal more than necessary. (Mog himself never left the party, so he wound up 20 levels ahead of everybody else and did stupid amounts of damage no matter what he did.) Four or five of them learned every possible spell - I believe it was Mog, Terra, Celes, Edgar, Sabin, and Locke (er? is that SIX?) - and the rest had 60-80% of the spells learned (except for Relm, who was probably around 40-50%, because I hated her). Well, discounting the ones who couldn't learn any spells. Oh, and I never realized that you could summon espers until after I finished the game, so, ah. Yeah. Well, when somebody bothered to tell me, I tried it a couple times and said, "hey, this doesn't do any more damage than regular spells and it costs more MP! this is more useless than Gogo!" (I realize that Gogo could be very useful. He was just completely redundant and less powerful than everyone by the time I got him. Although, to be perfectly honest, Mog made everyone else feel inadequate.)

I had not seen that book! I shall hope that we get one.

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[info]zoifox
2007-12-09 02:36 am UTC (link)
I thought Gogo could be tremendously versatile, but his/her stats were TERRIBLE. At least with the other characters, you could compensate for their weaknesses via strategic Esper equipping. With Gogo you needed accessories, and s/he STILL kind of sucked. I liked being able to equip everyone else's skills onto him/her, though.

I was an annoying completionist when I played FFVI. Everyone learned EVERYTHING. Well, everything they could, anyway. The one exception was Gau - I couldn't get all of his Rages. Still, there was really only a core group of characters I consistently used, Mog among them (Bob Umaro, sadly, wasn't, as he wasn't versatile enough, although he was fun). I didn't really use Sabin or Cyan more than I had to; I sucked at most of Sabin's Blitzes, and Cyan's Bushido/SwdTech was so slow it was useless to me. (Why should I just sit there and let monsters hit me while he charges, when I can have Mog or Gau wipe said monster out in the two hits they get to Cyan's one?) Relm's upgraded Control ability was good for stealing, though.

Golem was pretty useful, but most of the esper summons tended to be more pretty than useful.

I'm hoping I'm safely employed when that book comes out. I'd been hoping they were going to translate it.

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[info]chibikaie
2007-12-08 03:17 am UTC (link)
Quick update: skill points needed to learn a new spell does not vary by gender - I suspect now that it varies by spell level (i.e., Mega needs more than regular) which would mean that I got the impression that the boys needed more because they were passing around higher level spells.

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[info]zoifox
2007-12-09 02:38 am UTC (link)
Ah. That makes sense.

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